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月曜日, 10月 15

Women in art and comics

I don't have any art to show today
but I posted some general stuff
over at Greg Ruth's message board
the other day and apparently it was
met with a bit of discomfort by some
women and maybe men, I don't know
who or how many but I found it strange
that anyone took issue with the content
of my art. Granted, it was a string of
pictures featuring the ladies, some of
them in the nude... but if you're reading
this, that's not really news to you.

The majority of emails I get about
my work are from women. Most of
the people I talk to about my work
at artwalk are women. Most of the
prints I've sold have been to women.
Half of the people in the studio I show
with at artwalk are women, and they've
never had issue with what I do either.

Women seem to like what I do and don't
view it as objectification. Granted, that's
in the context of art and I suppose that
at Greg's message board it's in the context
of comics which has a different history
of objectifying women, so I can understand...
I guess. Anyway, Greg and I talked about
it to some extent in private and decided
to take it to the public. Head over and
check out the conversation. Chime in
if you've got something to say about it. It's
only just started, and I've yet to say anything.
I'm going to try to later tonight. Now, I'm
not asking for you to come to my defence
here, because that's not the issue, and I have
no real issue with what's happened. So, let's
talk about the role women have taken in art
and comics, and not my work specifically...
unless it comes up. You'll have to register,
but it's a pretty painless process. I promise.

The pieces that were a problem (now removed
from my post) are herehere here here and here.

Now, I can't lie, I'm a fan of drawing the
ladies... often nude. I suppose at one
point I was perhaps a little concerned with
how that would be taken, but at this point
in time I've gotten enough positive responses
from women that it's no longer a concern of
mine. But maybe it should be?

So, if you have something specific to say about
me and my work, do it here or to me through
my email. If you've got something to say about
the topic in general, say it at Greg's board.

Thanks. Gotta run.


Blogger jscott said...

An artist creating images of nude women? Preposterous! I hereby boycott your blog. Good day, sir.


I don't see anything even remotely close to the objectifying of women in those works. They are not gratuitous. They don't even seem to glamorize. They are simply works that contain naked women. Some may seem more finished, while others come across more like studies, but I find that they all convey mood or invoke thought. There is nothing to be offended by except the fact that a man has drawn/painted a naked woman. People offended by this are generally looking for something to be offended by.

another man that likes to draw/paint nude take from that what you will.

3:01 午後  
Blogger r_sail said...

I'm also boycotting my blog...

Yeah, pretty much whatever. I got several thoughts from women yesterday and none of them agreed with the complaints. In fact, they all felt the complete opposite. So yeah, whatever. I'm a guy, I like to draw women. Big Deal. I'm not like Micheal Turner or anything. HA! I draw REAL women, not some fantasy ideal of women.

How'd your thing go today?

3:12 午後  
Blogger jscott said...

After having read through that "women in art and comics" thread I do agree that nudity in general may not be appropriate in terms of that specific forum...But if you are being called out on "objectifying women" that's a whole other thing.

3:15 午後  
Blogger jscott said...

It went well. No mark until the end of the week, but I imagine it will be pretty decent.

I think all the profs thought the same thing as me...We've talked about all this to death already, so they pretty much know where I'm coming from.

3:17 午後  
Blogger r_sail said...

No, it's not appropriate in the centext... which I didn't think about at the time, but yeah, I was 'called out' though, secretly, for objectifying women. Whatever. None of the women I know think I am and neither do a hand full of women I know online... who I asked about it, and they expressed that I draw real women and it's great that I do so. I project a positive image of real women. So, I dunno... I do what I do and I'm not going to apologise for it or justify it to anyone who can't even complain to me about it.

3:42 午後  
Blogger Ester said...

i think jscott's right, that a lot of people search for things to be offended by. I personally think that any drawn image turns into an object, no matter what the subject is; and what may offend people is when a nude figure turns into a sexual exploitation. The fine line is the opinion part - of what someone believes is sexual in nature, versus a view of subtle beauty. It seems like the artist needs to simply know what they are trying to say, what they are appreciating in the image, and let the drawing follow. I think that the art will always show what the artists' appreciation is rooted in, be it sexual, beautiful, ugly, etc.

But as I also make art, I have to remember that once the image has been drawn, it's no longer "just mine". People can see it and form their own opinions of it, which I have no control over. It's like a child that I make, and once I let it go, whole new worlds can be created around it, totally apart from me.

If you want my opinion, I like those drawings that you've linked. Particularly the red winged girl. I don't see that any of them offend or try to exploit a nude body at all. I also don't have a problem with the nude body anyway, so that's where I stand with it. There has only been one image that kind of made me wonder about the intentions


but I suppose you were inspired by Ashley Wood there, and he is an artist that I do not care for at all. Technically his work is great, but personally I find it mostly all offensive. It's pretty natural to follow in someone's footsteps when inspiration from their work hits. I don't blame anyone for that, as long as you can find your own way to incorporate what you like into work that has your own fingerprint on it.
( btw - thank you very much for your birthday wishes. Made me smile today )

6:03 午後  
Blogger r_sail said...

Well, on one hand I agree with you, Ester. On another hand I disagree with the concept that "I no longer own it".

Which is to say that, sure, they can see in it whatever they happen to see in it and I can't control that. But when what they see is being forced back onto me in a negative way... to the point of censorship, I have a problem. You might see X and I intended X so fine, you get something from it beyond what I intended, and that's fair, but to force other people to NOT see it because of what you personally feel is teh intent... that' jsut complete fucking bullshit and I will not tolerate it. Especially when it turns into a finger pointing judgment of someone you don't know.

Mainly though, I'm kind of sorry I even gave it the time of day which sort of validates it. I should have just fucking ignored it completely.

As for Ashley Wood and the Mortis pic, whatever. I was just having fun, and the original is a far more interesting piece than what I did... but I was just having a bit of shitty fun. No biggie. Not to me anyway.

Also, Ashley Wood's more recent work like D'AIRAIN Aventure, ZvR and Metal Gear Solid have all pretty much dodged the female eye candy stuff... pretty much. I don't see Ashley's work as offensive myself. A little further than I care to go, but not offensive.

4:03 午前  
Blogger Ester said...

you're not going to be able to please everyone, and it'll drive you crazy to even try. You need to make the kind of work that keeps you happy and be satisfied with that, regardless of what other people think, because everyone has an opinion that you can't control. A good example of that kind of work is with Ashley Wood - he may offend me, but plenty of other people love his work, he just stays true to what makes him happy.

I'd suggest, that if you're putting your art in a venue that is denying you audience, just take it somewhere else that will accept what you do. (And thank god blogs aren't censored, right?) I'm sorry if I stressed you out telling you my thoughts...I like coming to see what you put on your blog.

5:01 午前  
Blogger r_sail said...

Na, you didn't stress me out. Quite the opposite really. And I wasn't surprised about your feelings on the Mortis pic. Just some cheeky fun. I appreciate your thoughts on the general matter very much.

Anyway, I like Greg's board and I dont' think it's denying me anything... more a case of not really the appropriate place for certain things. As for the complainers; fuck em. I just don't care about the opinion of anyone who's going to cry to mommy like that. Fucking cowards. If you've got something to say, sepak up. Quietly complaining to someone who's not really involved with the work in question isn't going to change anything, except for censoring that work. It's almost like saying "I've got no valid points, I just want to pretend that this isn't happening... La la la la la, I can't hear you." Childish nonsense I don't have time for. I've spent too much time and enery on it already.

4:52 午後  
Blogger Rachel said...

Oh, Hells. I didn't realize someone had objected to the pictures, and that was what had started the women 'n comics conversation (I'm awful about checking Greg's forum most of the time). That'll teach me to dive in without doing my homework. *facepalm*

Those are gorgeous pictures, particularly the last one, and if there's objectification, I'm not seein' it--they seem to be people, not just excuses to draw boobs (not that there's anything wrong with that, either). I could see someone being iffy about posting the images directly on a forum rather than linking 'em, because they might not be work safe, but that's a whole other issue...


3:57 午後  
Blogger r_sail said...

It came as quite a shock to me as well. Certainly never my intent, and nobody had ever vocalized that opinion to me... not that they did there either. Instead they complained to Greg. Apparently it was three women all of whom work in comics, so maybe how women are treated in comics is their filter they look through, I dunno.

Greg and I talked about it a bit in private when he asked me to remove the images... we just got onto the general topic and we decided to take it public and see how people felt about the issue in general. It wasn't really about me, but you know, it sparked the thread. I don't know what some people problems are... and I'm not going to worry about it.

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter. I've had quite a few women chime in via email to let me know that they don't see anything wrong with the images either. But, yeah, Greg's board isn't the right place for nudity, even if it's not objectifying.

ANd don't even start me on art being 'not work safe' I hate that shit! it's fucking art, not porn! :)

3:19 午後  
Blogger Rachel said...

ANd don't even start me on art being 'not work safe' I hate that shit! it's fucking art, not porn! :)

Yeah--it does kind of assume the worst case scenario: that the person clicking works in a panopticon, and the guy in the middle's a philistine and/or idiot.

Which isn't too far off from some jobs I've had, actually...

3:33 午後  
Blogger r_sail said...

Yeah, I got in 'trouble' at work once for drawing a figure breakdown, because I hadn't drawn any clothes on her yet... and my boss thought I was drawing 'pornography'. EVen though it was just a bunch of circles and a few lines... how erotic. [insert rolling eyes here] So I get it, but I just think it's fucking ignorant.

3:37 午後  
Blogger r_sail said...

Then again, you work in comics, right? ANd you have no problem with it... so I dunno.

4:30 午後  


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